I have all of those things to a limited extent = I have done all of those things to a limited extent
I should add that a lot depends on the amount of time we have and our goals. If I am a full time language learner I would do a lot more writing, and probably more early speaking, flash carding, grammar study etc. When I have to try to squeeze an hour a day in, I end up rely more on things that are easy to do, listening and reading to things I find interesting.
So everyone has different inclinations, interests, goals and is in a different situation.
Thanks, Robert, for your explanation, and welcome to LingQ.
As I have mentioned in this thread and elsewhere, there are varies degrees of the “silent period” approach. Some are stricter than the others. Different people have different lengths of the period. But the general belief is this: speaking too early is counter-productive.
By speaking, I refer to the activity of conducting conversations with anyone other than yourself in the target language. I realize that you use the term differently. I am fine with practising drills and speaking to oneself (I sometimes do these), but people like Krashen doubt their effectiveness.
Let’s say from now on, we refer ‘speaking’ as “conversing with people other than yourself”. I have a few questions for you:
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If you do not recommend having conversation with people (speaking) from day 1, when should we start?
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If you do not recommend having conversation with people from day 1, if someone suggests you to do this on day 1, will you consider this as being counter-productive to your language learning process?
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You are not speaking from day 0 up to the time you think you are ready to speak. Are you ok if someone calls this period the ‘silent period’?
Thanks in advance for your insight.
Robert’s and Alexandre’s posts make a lot of sense to me. One doesn’t have to learn all the grammar (or all the words), just enough to be able to express basic thoughts. Deliberately delaying that ability isn’t a good choice, in my opinion. Comprehension is good, nobody disagrees with that, but as Alexandre said, there will always be words and sentences you haven’t heard.
People will hate me for bringing up the music analogy again, but unless you’re jamming/playing along/learning by ear/“composing” it will take forever to get decent skills.
Start experimenting. Today.
@JayB: I think my comments to you should have been directed to Jeff. I was a bit lost in the thread.
I think everyone would agree that the “silent period” debate will go on for a while. All I am interested to know in this thread is where Robert stands in the spectrum. It seems to me that he is closer to the “silent period” camp than the “Speak-from-day-1” camp. The only discrepancy is his definition of ‘speaking’.
If this is the case (please confirm Robert), then this would explain (to me at least) why his accents are so good.
@Jeff: I completely agree with you, and your music analogy works very well here.
To all:
Think about how frustrating it is to try to remember some rarely used word in your native language. The reason you can’t remember it on the top of your head is because you don’t usually use it often enough.
The reason to start speaking a foreign language early on is—among other things—to improve retention.
There’s also nothing wrong with learning a few model sentences. In fact, if you analyze your own writing and speech, you’ll see that a great deal of it consists of standard, almost cliché-like fragments. In that sense, it’s not just a good idea—it’s imperative that you start learning and practicing them as early as possible.
@Jeff: I did try. Bad experience … counter-productive … discouraging …
I took French at high school and got a B. but I had not work on it for years. About 4 years ago, I decided to restart my French. I went to Skypecast and talked to people at random. Not only could I not make a thing out of what they were saying, more than that it gave me a huge sense of discouragement.
I was about to give up after a month. Then I found Steve’s blog, and I realized that my problem was that I was not working on my input enough. So I read, listened, and acquired vocabulary. During the period, I was not splitting my time between input and output activities, but I was focusing on input. My comprehension skills improved a lot only after a few months.
I still could not understand everything people say to me in French. But at least I had a better foundation when I started my speaking. I also found out that many words and phrases just came out from my mouth subconsciously without being practised. This was because I had listened to a lot of French.
I had a similar experience with my Mandarin, so I believe it was not a coincidence.
I am not going to debate this issue too much in this thread, as it is going to go on forever. But I just want to speak from my experience.
@edwin: First, let me say that I very much appreciate the constructive and friendly tone in this forum. Secondly, I’m kind of new to this whole discussion about methods. In the past I’ve been repeatedly asked how I study languages but I never really had thought about it myself. I just knew that the way I was taught languages at school was not working for me. I would go even as far as to say I managed to keep my passion for languages alive DESPITE many years of language training in an academic setting. Even at university I would often go into the library and just read dozens of magazines instead of listening to theroetic lectures about where my tongue is supposed to make contact with my teeth and for how long to produce a sound that in the northern part of Italy may be considered standard while this would not be the case in southern Italy. Okay, I’m exaggerating a bit, but I guess you get the picture. I first heard about the term “silent period” when I watched a video of KanjiKeith (I think that’s his nickname). He had filmed his first Chinese conversation after a silent period of 2,000 hours (if I’m not mistaken that’s the period he mentioned). I must admit that I was surprised to hear the term “silent” in connection with language learning. Language to me equals speaking. So, to be honest, I could not see much benefit in the silent-period concept. However, after having read some of the entries here, especially yours edwin, I might have to clarify a few things. I indeed think that one can and should speak right from the beginning. It’s just what I want to do when I study languages. Nevertheless, you won’t be able to have a real conversation with a set of five sentences or so. But even in that case I would speak the language and if I had an opportunity to do so I would ask a native speaker to help me expand on my knowledge and above all help me improve my pronunciation. Of course, this would have to be in a proper setting, like with a language exchange partner.
To give you an example: My Chinese is still quite basic despite the fact that I’ve been studying it for two years. But I immensely enjoy studying Mandarin. Now, there is little I can do as far as live conversations are concerned because I definitely won’t go to the owners of my local Chinese restaurant and bother them with my standard phrases. They have other things to do. But I have Chinese friends with whom I chat and when I was not yet able to formulate my own sentences I would simply read dialogues to them and they would correct my pronunciation. The next time I tried to use some sentences of the dialogues and “enrich” them with some of my own vocabulary. Of course, I had been listening and listening and listening again to the dialogues. Reading and listening to me are extremely important, by I prefer reading aloud at the beginning of my learning process. I need to get used to how I sound in that language.
Now, let me try to answer your questions (I’m still referring to edwin;-):
ad 1) If you do not recommend having conversation with people (speaking) from day 1, when should we start?
Well, maybe I was not clear in my videos but I hope I have clarified a few issues in my posts here. I think I said in my videos that one should speak from day one and by that I did not necessarily mean having a conversation. I cannot see myself having a conversation (which according to my understanding involves formulating your own thoughts and putting them into sentences, understanding what your interlocutor says etc.) from day 1 on. I would have to be a genius to do that, I guess, and I certainly am not.
So, if somebody can have a conversation as of day 1 (based on the definition of a conversation I gave above), then I’d say all the power to him or her, I’ve never been able to do that. But I never just sat there silently and only listened. I always spoke from day 1 on, even if I was just repeating what I had heard.
ad 2) If you do not recommend having conversation with people from day 1, if someone suggests you to do this on day 1, will you consider this as being counter-productive to your language learning process?
Well, based on your definition of conversation which as I now understand seems to coincide with mine, I would say I just can’t see how I would be able to have a conversation on day 1. I don’t think it is counter-productive but I just can’t do it. What I might be able to do and probably also would do is some speaking drill (I just want to hear myself speak the language and even if I mispronounce words this does not mean that I won’t be able to correct these mistakes). I think at the rate I normally learn languages (in my spare-time) I’d need at least a couple of months or so before being able to have a “conversation”. If you can dedicate 4 hours every day to your language studies you might be able to achieve that goal earlier. I’m not talking about scientific lectures but basic daily conversations.
ad 3) You are not speaking from day 0 up to the time you think you are ready to speak. Are you ok if someone calls this period the ‘silent period’?
I cannot imagine myself not speaking from day 0 or 1 on. I cannot have a decent conversation from day 1 on, of course not, but I will speak the language even if it just means repeating what I heard on a CD. I like imitating things. I have never studied any pronunciation rules but I simply try to imitate people.
And for that I need to listen to them first, of course, and I need to listen a lot but I also try to imitate them right away. I don’t believe that there is a risk of developing a habit of speaking incorrectly if you start "too early " with speaking the language. After all, I keep listening and if I’m lucky enough to have a language partner or tutor I also will get constructive input as to how improve (I don’t like the term “correction” in this context).
By the way, when I practice my mother tongue with my language partners I never “correct” them in the traditional sense of pointing out their mistakes. I let them speak because they need to be able to let the words come out of their mouth without fearing that I might stop them every time I believe to have detected an error. But I will use the correct wording in my own sentences. Example: My language partner says: “He go home every day.” I would then ask him: Why do you think he goes home every day?
That way my language partner knows that I understood what he was saying, he can feel the progress he is making in learning the language and at the same time he realizes that making mistakes is no reason to stop talking. Of course, all this would be useless if you were not seriously making an effort learning the language. Language learning can be extremely enjoyable but it always and inevitably involves a lot of efforts. And I, for my part, am more than willing to make that investment 
I hope I was able to clarify a few things. You can also try to talk to me via skype if you want. Just leave me a message on my youtube site and we can exchange our skype IDs.
Best wishes,
Robert
ad edwin) Sorry, sorry - you told me that by “speaking” you meant conversing with other people and by conversing I guess you mean formulating your own thoughts in sentences.
Based on this, let me rephrase my answers (and I do apologize for the misunderstanding):
ad 1)
It normally takes me at least a couple of months before I feel comfortable doing that and the result most likely would still be less than satisfying. I’d give it a try, though.
ad 2)
I would feel under a lot of pressure and I just wouldn’t be able to comply with his “request”. How can I have a conversation on day 1 (based on our common definition as above)?
ad 3)
Well, I don’t know why anybody would want to use the term “silent” in connection with the language learning process. Maybe it is just a misconception of the term “silent” on my part. It reminds me of the time when our teachers told us to be “silent” and that basically meant they told us to “shut up”. It feels like something that is being imposed on me and I don’t like that feeling.
But no matter what you call that period it simply is there. There is bound to be a time during which I’m simply not able to have a conversation. I don’t see the need to give it a name though. If I feel I’m ready to have a conversation I’ll have a go at it and if not I’ll just wait. However, so far my enthusiasm for the language I was studying always allowed me to have at least some sort of conversation at an early stage. I just would learn as many words as I needed to have that conversation.
Sorry again for the misunderstanding.
Regards,
Robert
@Robert
Are you planning to do a recorded discussion on Skype with Steve Kaufmann? I would be very interested to learn more about your personal ‘language history’ - details about how you learn, what foreign countries (if any) you have lived in, etc.
I’m guessing that you have spent some time in America? (At any rate, there is a noticeable American edge to your accent.)
I kind of thought there was a slight Ulster influence in his “out” sounds.
Yes Robert and I hope to do a video conference on Tuesday. I also have one planned for Sunday with Susanna Raysky. I will be putting them up on youtube.
Well it seems like all disagreement in this thread boils down to a difference in the term “silent period”.
To me, a silent period isn’t a period of time wherein no utterances are made at all. You can still repeat, talk to yourself, etc in such a system. To me it means one in which no real conversations are had.
Similarly, a “speak-from-day-1” learner as edwin puts it is, to me, someone like Moses. He said I think that he tends to use any and all phrases he has in the chat rooms and other conversations from day one.
(I hope he said that; I could be mistaken.)
So yeah. I don’t think he is one of those polyglots. I think it was just a misunderstanding of terms.
The disagreement is over whether it is necessary or helpful to speak from the beginning, in other words to produce output. There are those that claim it is a must or a condition for success. There are others who claim that it can harm you.
Given that there are so many things that influence language learning success, and over such a long period of time, I do not understand how people can be so categorical in telling other people what is good for them.
I think it does not matter. It depends on opportunities to speak, interest in speaking or interest in other forms of learning.
Basically it is not an important issue in language learning. Speak when you feel like it. Certainly I would not accept someone telling me that I had to speak.
One other important consideration: the average language learner does not get in an hour a day, and is lucky to get in a few hours a week. So what makes sense for a die hard dedicate language learner like Moses or Robert may not make sense for the casual language learner.
I am a hard working language learner, but still struggle to find an hour a day, and only manage it by listening during other tasks and dead times. Is that not the norm?
Robert, thank you once again for your detailed reply.
To avoid further confusion, I will use the term ‘converse’ for clarification from now on. Perhaps we should also use a new term “non-conversational period” instead of “silent period”.
Of course, the term “day 1” should not be taken literally. It refers to the very beginning period of acquiring the language.
As for practising generating variations from original limited sentences, personally I doubt that it is more effective than using the same period of time for more input, due to the following 2 reasons:
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There are simply not enough language patterns you have encountered. The variants generated could be wrong, and you cannot tell. E.g., I see the phrases “He is a man” and “I love you”. I make up the phrase “He love you”. If I instead spend the time on more input activities, I can get exposed to more language patterns. I could for example encounter the phrase “He loves you” in the natural way.
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If I instead spend the time on more input activities, I can raise my comprehension level, and I can become more ready for future conversations.
I often sense that people downplay the importance of comprehension in conversation practices. If you cannot understand most of what the other person says, it does not matter if you know 10000 words and 1000 phrases. You cannot expect the other person to follow the scripts. Of course, I am not saying that you have to understand the other person completely. You never will.
If we acknowledge the importance of comprehension, we will understand why it is important to lay the foundation of comprehension skill at the beginning, and we just cannot find extra time to do other less important stuff.
@SolYViento: yes, Moses’ FLR method encourages conversation at a very early stage. But Moses himself seems to be experimenting the idea of silent period lately with his Italian.
Another thought: Perhaps the main problem with the “speak early” school, is that it drives the learner to a school or teacher, where he can speak when he know little, rather than encouraging him or her to explore the language independently. It can make the learner dependent because in fact most native speakers will not have the patience to spend too much time with someone speaking haltingly in their language.
@Sol - Even Moses recommends listening first. For example;
“The first step - we want to listen to familiarise” “Spend first 1.5 month just listening”.
Is Moses doing Italian? Wouldn’t this be his first European language ?
Edwin - I haven’t watched Moses’ video yet. How useful does he think that his Italian listening experiment is? Will he try that for upcoming languages? If not, why?
Steve - I can’t see how speaking, or “thinking aloud”/playing with grammar for that matter, is discouraging the learner from exploring the language independently. The learner isn’t asked to give long speeches, just use the skills available.
As for “Spending time with someone speaking haltingly in the language” - I have seen a couple of youtube videos recently that fit this description…
Jeff, too much emphasis on speaking, or making it a condition of learning, tends to make the learner think he needs a teacher or a classroom, and unaware of how much progress can be achieved through listening and reading, which are easy to arrange and to control.
As to speaking haltingly in the language, I have no doubt that there are people who like to do that, and even put up videos of themselves doing so, but it is not easy to spend a lot of time doing so, and not important in the language learning process in my view.