Well, I’ve got some things to say about LingQ. This seems to be the feedback section of this forum, or at least that’s what in its description. I’m sorry if I’m too harsh, but I’m just trying to help, from the bottom of my heart. So let’s go:
First of all, since I gave the hint a moment ago, this forum is a total mess. It’s really complete chaos. You have this section described as “Let us know how we’re doing. Ask any questions about the system. Give us your feedback.” and I see all kinds of things, but I can’t find anything that resembles feedback. I also wonder why an “open forum” should have this kind of description. It needs serious moderation. And it’s not like you have too many posts here to mod. Also, the help section is not exactly thorough for those trying to understand how LingQ works, which makes you come to these chaotic fora - that shouldn’t be necessary.
As soon as I got here, I noticed all those… “lessons”. That’s an interesting choice of words. I do think you can learn something from it, but you could also learn it from anything written in that language. It’s just plain text paired with audio and all you have to do is dumbly repeat what’s written, no thinking involved at all. This may be good for people who want to learn the basics and be able to [be understood by/understand] others when travelling. You don’t know why you’re saying what you’re saying, you don’t know the exception to the rules because you don’t know the rules. In my point of view, that’s mediocre language learning. What’s even more amusing to me is that I couldn’t find any lessons that look like a lesson (at least in German, French and Portuguese). Nothing is explained in those lessons. You have to ask in the fora to get an explanation and it also shouldn’t be necessary. I don’t think, for example, it’s possible to learn portuguese verbs without an explanation. We have 3 regular conjugation classes, each one of them has close to 50 inflections. Crazy, yes, and you won’t learn it just by reading texts. For what I’ve been reading here, people trying to learn a new language should cut the evil-is-the-grammar attitude and study. I’m not saying you should overdose people with rules, but give them some attention, too. Because, otherwise, all you have to do is to brainwash them with a maelstrom of words. And that’s not teaching. I understand it’s just a question of methods, beliefs etc. But don’t call them lessons - they’re selected texts paired with audio. And with a nice engine to keep track of your vocabulary. Very good engine, by the way.
One other thing that just doesn’t make sense. Why would I want to send a text to a tutor after reading a bunch of random phrases about greeting and saying goodbye, for example? Why does it help me complete a “lesson”? Reading, listening and lingQing make a lot of sense, but, even so, I think the tasks for completing a lesson (a true lesson, at least) should be set by its creator. Maybe they could suggest some kind of exercise which would be sent to the uploader or another tutor. I don’t know.
A small suggestion: when you’re updating your account/profile, there should be a section where you could list all the languages you know and rank your own knowledge on them. Makes more sense to me than choosing each separate language and then rating it. And it’s kinda weird that you start as “no knowledge” in your own native language. Even if you change it, “advanced 2” is definitely not the same as “native language”.
That was basically it. Obviously, I didn’t cover everything. As of now, I kinda regret I paid 10 usd for this. I’ll probably downgrade in a week or two, but who knows. I reiterate - don’t take it to heart. I’m an annoying critic, I know. If it makes it any better, I wouldn’t be spending that much time giving you guys feedback if I didn’t believe it had potential. It just needs some work.
I do not believe it is possuble to teach a language. It is possible to learn, and grammar explanations are avery small part of the learning process in my view. If you apply yourself to our method you will improve. If you are looking for explanations you will be disappointed here.
“Love it or leave it”, huh? Maybe I was disrespectful and didn’t realize it?
Learning new words is easier through a lot of reading and listening. But I think there’s more to learning a language. It’s not mere chance that my German is way better than my uncle’s (I’ve studied for 4 years and a half, he lives there since 1991). You know, those two things aren’t opposed to each other. If that’s your only point here, honestly, there are many sites doing similar things. Anyway, you’ve just covered (barely) one of my topics. You don’t even agree about exercises? And the other things?
Oh, well, what can I do? Sorry for questioning the method; I didn’t mean to offend anyone. I really didn’t. I’ll humbly withdraw to my insignificance and be sad about my 10 dollars, since the man said I’ll be disappointed.
I don’t think you’ve understood the point of lingq. The theory is that you shouldn’t study, but absorb a language. With writing, you’re supposed to send off a piece when you have a large enough vocabulary to express yourself. Out of interest, why do you think your german is better?
the reason is simple: when I paid him a visit a year ago, I was the one helping him talk to other people, teaching him words and he even insisted on correcting my pronunciation when I was right (that seemed so impossible at the time that I had to check with my native cousins to be sure). Fair enough?
Enough of wasting my time. Good luck to you guys.
(Try improving your listening skills. You sound religiously irritated by my suggestions.)
I’ve looked up the word “lesson” and it has a broad range of meanings. It could mean a section of religious text read out as part of a religious service, it could mean a piece of work a teacher sets you with specific learning objectives. In the wider sense, however, it could mean, something that you learn something unplanned from. I think gabsn’s issues with the word lesson, as well as his issues with the content and structure of the lessons, stems from his own definition of what a lesson is and ought to be.
There is scope for properly-planned lessons with carefully-designed follow-up tasks and stated learning outcomes in the LingQ library, and one of these days I shall write some. There is also scope for “realia”, short stories and anything else that will result in unplanned learning.
Well his cousins are German native speakers and his uncle lives there. Perhaps he spoke German at home growing up?
Religiously irritated = not in agreement? Is that what he was trying to say?
I think one of the problems is that, for most people, it seems that they need to be de-brainwashed (from traditional methods) and then re-brainwashed (towards more natural methods), as bad as it sounds.
As a side note, I know people who have lived here for 10 or more years and do not speak English as well as I do French. Not enough comprehensible input, perhaps.
I wonder how old he is? I notice that educational methods have changed considerably in Britain over the last few decades. Even in classrooms, it is no longer considered radical for a French teacher to give students a selection of sentences and ask them to work out from the the rules for forming the possessive.
I have students who have real trouble with the concept that even talking with a native teacher can have educational value. As far as they are concerned, if we aren’t working directly out of the textbook (“Now open your book to page 22 and answer question 6”), they can’t be learning anything.
I feel an aphorism coming on: Part of a teacher’s job is undoing all the work done by the student’s previous teachers
I agree that you need to study grammar to understand a language. I see no evidence that it is helpful to study it formally or very hard.
I have been studying Japanese verbs, in the sense that when I come across one it a sentence I sit and look at it and think about it. When I figure something out, like “aha! That bit means want to!” I remember it.
Going over my notes I see that last year I downloaded and studied explanations on Japanese verbs. Can’t remember a word of them now. But I remember what I figured out myself from studying LingQ’s “I want to eat chocolate” collection.
What a pity that @gabsn has left I was going to ask him/her about the ‘humble’ bit, where was it? I also wondered what s/he was going on about in respect of the writing submissions. The blue button on the lesson page was clearly too much to understand. Oh, well, what a shame, she so clearly had other people’s interest at heart.
I am always amazed the way some people will state their position very strongly but seem genuinely offended if others don’t agree with their views, and just won’t take the trouble to explain or defend their position.
Eh, I fear I’d be mixed with dirt just as the thread author, but I have to agree with opinions he stated.
No offense meant, text below is just my opinion.
I came to try our this site after smart.fm announced it’s closing free service. So I haven’t been here for long nor I plan to stay (as it is).
Few things about the site itself:
First of all, lingQ looks discouraging from the start: no organization, no structure of language study. Puppies are thrown into the river and people gather around to see if they would be able to learn to swim.
Browsing Japanese lessons I couldn’t understand their purpose and level from the first glance, also everything is mixed and unorganized.
Interface is hardly anything but simple to the extent of being misleading. I think you should tell people more about how the site works.
Lessons themselves… Maybe I wasn’t lucky or patient enough, but I browsed quite a few lessons and couldn’t find anything that’d interest me enough to want to read/review it many times. After some time I had no desire to browse more. So I think you should organize lessons in groups judging by level of proficiency, theme, grammar points, add some guiding on what to start first. And add more lessons of different levels of proficiency, themes, grammar points, etc. At least to help people to get on their way.
As I see it now, lingQ isn’t studying at all. I’ve been studying Japanese for quite some time at language school and I’d not move a bit from zero knowledge if my tutors didn’t explain basics of grammar to me. I don’t have tons of free time, I don’t work as a language tutor and I can’t devote 4 hours per day to reading/speaking/listening. Language learning is my hobby, not my life.
Therefore I have to look for methods of learning that save time and are effective (for me).
‘Absorb a language’ or ‘repetition makes perfect’ thing that is promoted on lingQ isn’t a rational way to learn (imho), because it makes you learn like a child - repeating and remembering - while adults should use their brains to think about what they’re learning. The power of abstract thinking and rationalization is what adults should make use of…
There’s no use to re-invent a bicycle after it has been invented.
We should use experience of other people, not deduce everything by ourselves.
LingQ is a resource, a platform and a community. It cannot be the whole language learning experience. For those who need explanations, I recommend buying a small book for beginners. I think most people do.
If you don’t want people to talk behind your back, just stick around for the discussion.
"‘Absorb a language’ or ‘repetition makes perfect’ thing that is promoted on lingQ isn’t a rational way to learn (imho), because it makes you learn like a child - repeating and remembering - while adults should use their brains to think about what they’re learning. The power of abstract thinking and rationalization is what adults should make use of… "
I have experience as a teacher and there is lots of evidence both from Applied Linguistics (see Krashen) and much anecdotal evidence form teachers that this is not true.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill
The vast majority of language learners are not very successful. The vast majority of language learners learn the traditional way, the way you would like to see things on LingQ - by being spoonfed structured content with a healthy dose of grammar and lots of “teaching”. You say our approach is more like that used by children. All children learn their native language. Which approach to learning seems more successful? Which approach am I going to spend my time on?
“So I think you should organize lessons in groups judging by level of proficiency, theme, grammar points, add some guiding on what to start first. And add more lessons of different levels of proficiency, themes, grammar points, etc”
Here are a few points to consider:
It takes a lot of work to plan courses, you have to work out learning objectives, structure your material etc. Sure, we can do it - are you prepared to pay for it? Because you are asking for a teacher’s professional services there.
Once you structure learning material you are structuring people’s learning. A lot of people like to structure their own learning according to their own individual learning needs. Once someone starts imposing a structure, as many people will complain as will show gratitude.
If you want your learning structured for you, the best way would be to sign up for one-on-one conversations with a tutor, who will design a course for you. You will need to pay them for their services.
If you want structured lessons, then there are many excellent published textbooks. You can import the material into LingQ and create your own lessons. Of course, if you want feedback or help from a native, the best way is to sign up with a tutor and pay them for their time.
¨LingQ is a resource, a platform and a community. It cannot be the whole language learning experience.¨
That is pretty much how I treat LingQ. I´ll be honest, I don´t think I would enjoy learning if I only used LingQ – I do love grammar now and then. And I think the site and LingQ system are by no means perfect, particularly when it comes to Japanese. That said, I use LingQ every day for listening practice and some vocab. I guess on some level, I treat it as a big library of audio content with some extras. I simply supplement it with other resources.
"‘Absorb a language’ or ‘repetition makes perfect’ thing that is promoted on lingQ isn’t a rational way to learn (imho), because it makes you learn like a child - repeating and remembering - while adults should use their brains to think about what they’re learning. "
Here is a little story about how effective the way is in which children learn:
My granddaughter is slightly handicapped and at the moment still has difficulty speaking and forming words (she’s three years old). She does, however, communicate very well and understands everything (sometimes too much: she knows what we are talking about when we spell “Ice” or “Eis”).
I have noticed that when we’re together in the UK and she’s surrounded by English, she’ll switch to trying English rather than German. When I’m around or when we’re in Germany she predominantly uses German.
As she has very little exposure to other children, all meaningful input comes from adults and we do talk and sing a lot with her, read to her and join her when she watches her DVDs.
That child certainly thinks about what she has learnt and how she can use it!
I love these types of posts. I really don’t know how Steve can keep his cool.
Mark’s comment was the best I’ve read:
"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results. - Winston Churchill
The vast majority of language learners are not very successful. The vast majority of language learners learn the traditional way, the way you would like to see things on LingQ - by being spoonfed structured content with a healthy dose of grammar and lots of “teaching”. You say our approach is more like that used by children. All children learn their native language. Which approach to learning seems more successful? Which approach am I going to spend my time on?
Open your mind… "
I use to be a strong disbeliever of the LingQ system until I saw Steve get really good at Russian without even going to Russia and hardly ever speaking it! It took visual proof to convince me of it’s effectiveness. After that, I decided to pay for this service and will continue to as I love French (I wished it was my native language) and I found this method to be the most effective.
The original poster wrote in a manner that depicts him to be a follower and not a leader. The typical 9-5 corporate sheep who must have a “real” job otherwise they surely are not working. I found LingQ to be far superior than Alliance Française in learning French and of course it’s typical brainwash marketing that has made you and others like you to be ignorant. It’s $10/month… going to these classes costs hundreds/thousands and guarantees you that you will still be lower intermediate after 4-5 years learning but in a class that is labelled “Advanced” to give you a false sense of progression.
And I think the site and LingQ system are by no means perfect, particularly when it comes to Japanese. That said, I use LingQ every day for listening practice and some vocab. I guess on some level, I treat it as a big library of audio content with some extras. I simply supplement it with other resources.