这个podcast是为了外国学生，但是我觉得它的内容很消极。干吗叫我们“老外”？为什么你要让大家以为所有的留学生都一样并且都很黄色？Why are so many Chinese materials so full of stereotypes

[lovelanguagesIII]

ad Colin: I loved Qingdao. It has an interesting historic part, a bustling new part, fantastic scenery, it is a clean and SAFE city, the people were extremely helpful and friendly and I thought the railway station was well organised. It was huge though. But I liked it since it is very practical and clean.

I went from Qingdao to Beijing by train and it was a very comfortable train ride.

China is changing at an incredible pace and that certainly causes problems on many different levels. I still think it is one of the most fascinating countries I have been to, not least thanks to its people. The only thing I found a bit disturbing was the service attitude (or more the lack of it) of some people in restaurants and hotels. But these people were definitely in the minority.

[steve]

鬼佬 洋鬼子 外国人 老外 西方人 白种人

These are some of the terms that Chinese people use to describe Westerners, regardless of whether they live in China or in the West. Which of these terms are racist or offensive? Depends on the attitude of the speaker, and I guess on the person hearing the term.

Personally, i have found the term 老外 to be almost a term of endearment, and certainly not offensive. It is used more in China than amongst immigrant groups. Here in Canada, on Chinese radio talk shows I hear the term 西方人 (Westerner) and occasionally 外国人 (foreigner), or 白人 (white person) to describe mainstream Canadians, rarely "Canadians or “locals”. I find this somewhat annoying, but indicative of how isolated many Chinese are from the mainstream. On internet forums and the like, 鬼佬 or 洋鬼子 or simply 鬼子 (essentially “devil” or “ghost” i.e. not human) is quite common. I find this offensive. 鬼佬 is very common in everyday speech amongst Cantonese speakers.

Are the Chinese racist? Of course they are, at least some of them are. When Condoleeza Rice visited China, the blogosphere was full of tens of thousands of comments with the most aggressively racist comments. But when we say a society is racist we really mean that some people are.l So are the Chinese more racist than other people, Canadians, Americans, Koreans, Austrians, Japanese, Italians etc. I don’t know. There is ample evidence of racist behaviour in all of these and most other places.

The fact that there are anti-immigrant demonstrations in Europe or Australia is not an indication of the depth of racism in the society. I am quite convinced that if there were as much immigration, and especially refugee claimants, in China as in Europe and Australia, there would be aggressive displays of anti-immigrant feeling. ON the other hand in Vancouver, the Asian population has gone from 5% to 45% of the total population without any such demonstrations, although there is a lot of private grumbling.

[danednielockett]

love languages 111

Not everyone uses the word in the same way, the tone and the context do matter, no one is disputing this. The problem is that in general the word is derogatory.

I work for television stations here in Jiangsu, and with the different teams I’m on we visit a lot of parts of the province.I thought it was potentially just me originally, and my collegues said that it was harmless. But later, when we had dinners and meetings with govt officials, interviews with farmers etc, my collegues that agreed that it was often used in a disrespectful way. For example, when our boss was introducing our team once, they would say the name and roles of the people in the team, but I would just be introduced as the laowai - with no function and no name. I had to introduce myself. When I said I was the host, the govt officials were amazed, like “wow a laowai is the host, so your show is filmed in English right”.

The first story basically says that some foreigners in Beijing called sexy girls “kaoya” and average girls “jianbing”. The kaoya roast duck girls are high status, and the jianbing pancake girls are low status. As a side point, while these terms weren’t thought up by the foreigners, the fact that they are the ones portrayed as using them to describe women makes the foreigners ones responsible for the sexist language.

The foreigners initially thought they liked the kaoya, but then found out that Chinese parents are worried about their children dating foreigners because they are traditional. The foreigners start going after the jianbing, because they are lower quality, and in the end the find out that they are satisfied with low quality girls. The following assumptions are in this:

1. high quality girls wouldn’t be with a foreigner because they respect their Chinese traditions
2. low quality girls don’t mind
3. Foreign guys are actually happy with any kind of Chinese girl, even ones they have already classified as inferior
4. Foreign guys objectify women based purely on how sexy they are.

The initial mention of foreigners is as 外国朋友, but as soon as we get to the content about how they talk about women, they are called 老外. This pattern of describing foreigners as 外国人 when they aren’t doing something wrong, but calling them 老外 when they are is repeated here.

The second podcast “Visas and Vodka” describes an area of Beijing with a lot of embassies. In the third and final paragraph they say 外国人 when talkingn about how there are alot walking around. They say this area has three specialities: that there are foreigners, that there is foreign food and that there are bars.

The first speciality, that there are a lot of foreigner is “zhengchang” or “proper”. 只要 在 大使馆 外面 两三 里 路 走走 看 ， 就 不难 发现 这里 的 特点 。 一 、 外国人 多 。 这 很 正常.
The second point is that there are a lot of foreign restaurants, this is also “proper”. But when they get to the third point about bars, suddenly the foreigners become 老外.

酒吧 里 有 美酒 、 现场 演出 、 DVD 、 名人 、 女人 . . . . .
The bar has a lot of things, but “women” is placed last in the list followed by … which indicates that it is improper.
老外 说 ， 不 去 酒吧 那 不 是 生活 ； 中国人 说 ， 去 酒吧 那 是 不 一样 的 生活
The foreigner who says there is no life without going to bars is contrasted by the Chinese who defends all the Chinese that don’t like bars (which is commonly the case) by saying that its just a different kind of life. The rhetorical structure of describing the first two points as “proper” and then having the Chinese disagree with the foreigner about the “no bars no life” comment. The use of 老外 is actually a marker for the reader to show that the writer doesn’t agree with the foreigner.

What you can tell from this is that:

1. foreigners always go to bars (to get drunk)
2. Chinese have a more pure life
3. Foreigners go to bars looking for women (read as foreigner are loose sexually)

[ColinJohnstonov]

I had a Taiwanese girlfriend whose pet name for me was ‘white devil’.

[LFJ]

Anyone saying 老外 is in any way negative or dehumanizing simply doesn’t understand the language or culture! You probably haven’t been learning the language very long nor have lived in the culture enough to understand its usage.

It may sound off-putting to you because we don’t really call foreigners such in English as it would sound rude to refer to someone as “the foreigner”.

But in Chinese, that’s the language and culture and is not negative. 老 as a prefix is often used to show respect, affection or familiarity, and can even mean “venerable”. Just like 老妈, 老爸 or 老张 is not rude. The 外 part is just an honest statement of fact and doesn’t suggest anything rude. That’s the culture. 老外 is far more respectful than 外国人 which is not necessarily negative either.

To put it in perspective, when I was at a monastery visiting a Buddhist monk whom I hadn’t seen in a year and who is also the most kindhearted person I’ve ever met, after a nice catching up over tea he asked a couple of his young disciples to bring the two “老外” to the cafeteria to join them for lunch. That was NOT somehow a shot when his back was turned!

Likewise, there is no context in which the respectful term 老外 could be rude or dehumanizing, only perhaps to those who don’t know what it actually means.

You can begin to take offense when you hear 鬼佬, 洋鬼子, or 鬼子 like Steve mentioned.

All that said, yeah, many Chinese can be terribly racists… particularly against the Japanese, but also against their own when they have darker skin or come from a village and not the big city. It can get pretty rough. Many somehow also think black people only live in Africa. So grouping all “老外” as one is not a stretch for them. But you have to take into account the recent history of their country and their current extent of development. And also know, not every one is that way! Just like not all Americans are offended by the Coca Cola commercial!

In any case, no, 老外 is not offensive in any way.

[danednielockett]

Dear LFJ,

Thanks for not addressing any of my arguments with rebuttals. And also thanks for assuming that because I disagree with you I have a low level of linguistic or cultural knowledge. For your information, all of my work is in Chinese, I am a host for tv documentaries about Jiangsu traditional Chinese culture, all of the scripts, all of the extended speeches I present and the interviews are in Mandarin.

http://dashan.com/blog/languages/laowai-vs-waiguoren/

Do you know Dashan大山 - I assume you probably don’t know him because you clearly have a lack of knowledge about China ^^。In this post he says this:

Perhaps the best measure of whether a word is pejorative or not is to gauge what the subject himself/herself perceives. In my experience, most foreigners do not like being referred to as laowai except in the most informal of surroundings and by close friends who may use the term in a joking manner, similar to the way one might refer to a close Caucasian friend as a “honky” without causing offense.
Personally, I never use laowai to refer to myself or other foreigners.

Why don’t you email 大山 and tell him he is wrong because you met a monk who ignored you and your friend’s name, nationality and ethnicity when he called you 老外。

In any case, I guess if you are happy being disrespected, then the title is probably appropriate for you.

[LFJ]

So Dashan doesn’t use 老外 to refer to ignorant foreigners who take offense to it based on their negative feeling of calling someone “foreigner” in English. It really has nothing to do with the Chinese language or culture!

[steve]

@danednie

This has been a very interesting thread, and your last few posts in particular.

I guess the main thing is whether we are treated as individual people, even friends, or as some kind of stereotyped specimen of something foreign and strange. The former is what we achieve with some Chinese, but the latter situation is unfortunately very common, perhaps the norm, and in that sense I guess the term laowai typifies this stereotypical dehumanized view of Westerners.

Having said that, we don’t censor our content unless it is truly hateful or vulgar. The purpose here is to help people learn the language. You can find everything from the Bible to Karl Marx and I don’t know what else.

It sounds like you have an interesting job.

[kigoik]

@danednie
If it is only the term “老外” which makes you uncomfortable, I would say you probably make a mountain out of a molehill if I were allowed to say so. For me, the term “老外” is rather a colloquial, abbreviated, and even sometimes intimate form of “外国人”. Of course, it all depends on the tone, situation, etc. which may make its meaning negative, and these rules also apply on “外国人”.

[LFJ]

@danednie: “And also thanks for assuming that because I disagree with you I have a low level of linguistic or cultural knowledge.”

Well, let’s take a closer look then. Shall we? You said;

"The first speciality, that there are a lot of foreigner is “zhengchang” or “proper”. 只要 在 大使馆 外面 两三 里 路 走走 看 ， 就 不难 发现 这里 的 特点 。 一 、 外国人 多 。 这 很 正常.
The second point is that there are a lot of foreign restaurants, this is also “proper”. But when they get to the third point about bars, suddenly the foreigners become 老外. "

Here you’ve misunderstood very simple vocabulary. 正常 does not mean “proper”. It means “normal”. What the sentence means is that it is “ordinary” or “regular” to see many foreigners and foreign restaurants in that area. It’s a “common” sight. It has nothing to do with “proper” or “improper”. I have no idea what you’re even talking about. If you don’t understand 正常 how are we to believe you understand the meaning and cultural sense of 老外?

Glad you feel proud of your accomplishments in your career, but whatever TV station you work for obviously doesn’t have very high quality control in who they hire. No offense.

[steve]

As a Westerner (gulp), I find the easy way so many Chinese divide the world into Chinese and the West, quite annoying. The same happens in Japan where Gaijin essentially means Westerner.

There are lots of countries and cultures in the world, China and the Chinese culture is but one among many. The Chinese alternate between complaining about the rampant corruption in their country and claiming all kinds of superior moral values for Chinese culture. In both cases, it is the stereotyping that is annoying.

It is quite common to be told by Chinese that “in China people place great importance on the family, and on hospitality whereas in the West you don’t.”

Which Chinese? Which Westerner? Which country.? Which individuals?

The many Chinese who park their wives and children in Canada and go back to their business and night life in China, only visiting Canada once or twice a year?

The Canadians I know whose social life centres around brothers, cousins and the like, or the hospitable people I have met in all kinds of European countries, each with their own traditions. People are individuals, and implied in the term laowai or guailo, is the sense that they are not.

[LFJ]

@Steve;

Have you by chance read the book by 林语堂 entitled 《中国人》or 《吾国与吾民》? Apparently, it was first written in English between 1933 and 1934, published as My Country and My People, and translated into Chinese. I’ve only read the Chinese version.

It’s an interesting book on the Chinese and their culture. In it, the author makes a point which I’ve also noticed in today’s China. That being that the Chinese only have the concept of “family”, but no concept of “society”. Even when looking upon the country as a whole, it is “国家”.

I found how true this is having just gotten back to China where I’ve been living from a trip to South Korea. The Koreans are so friendly and respectful to total strangers. It’s like day and night. In China, people are very friendly to family, friends and acquaintances, but toward strangers it’s as if they aren’t there! So inconsiderate. I noticed this when I was in a line at the supermarket in Korea and people waited patiently behind me and didn’t rush the counter or push me aside. I’ve never been in a line like that in China! Overall, I was blown away by the Koreans and would like to return.

Anyway, to anyone who is interested in the language and culture of China, I recommend the book! It makes sense of a lot and is a good read.

[lovelanguagesIII]

ad danednie (…) Thanks for the detailed description of how you interpreted the two lesssons - I really appreciate you going through that and explaining your view of things.

I have never ever been just addressed as laowai when somebody I knew talked about me, nor have I been addressed like that directly by anybody I just met. The ice-cream seller I mentioned in an earlier post had said to his colleague: look, there is a “laowai”.

I really don’t think he had any bad intentions whatsoever when he said that. Obviously, he had not seen many foreigners before. I did not detect any hostility towards me when we talked to each other.

I assume that many people using the term “laowai” don’t mean to denigrate anybody. I might be wrong but that has been my personal experience so far.

ad Steve: (…) The Chinese alternate between complaining about the rampant corruption in their country and claiming all kinds of superior moral values for Chinese culture. In both cases, it is the stereotyping that is annoying. (…)

I agree with you, but again that is not an attitude limited to China. Just think of how Americans often (even their president) refer to the US as “the greatest nation of all” and then you have people (justly) complaining about how they are spied on by the government etc.

(…) People are individuals, and implied in the term laowai or guailo, is the sense that they are not. (…)

Yes, people are individuals and that’s what I also tried to say in my previous posts. Unfortunately, generalizations happen all over the place. I don’t agree that the term “laowai” is implying that people are not individuals. I frequently say in German that I have “ausländische Freunde”, I don’t make a list of them saying I have French, British, American, Chinese…etc. friends.

I would, of course, never introduce any of my friends as “the French” or “the foreigner”. I introduce them by their names and sometimes I add where they come from (depending on the situation).

However, I don’t think that you can just translate the term “laowai” literally and dissect it to show that it is used in a derogatory way. Context is vital here. I think that our own obsession with political correctness is something we should not automatically expect from other cultures. Don’t get me wrong, I think it is very important and should go without saying that people should treat each other respectfully, I just never felt that when I heard the term “laowai” people were actually looking down on me.

The term can be used in this sense, just as you can use the term “foreigner” in a rather negative way I guess.

As for the anti-foreign demonstrations and sentiments in Europe and other parts of the world, yes, I think too that in part they have to do with the amount of foreigners we have. Japan has a bit more of 1.3 percent I think, Austria has about 13 percent right now (which is the largest percentage in Europe after Luxembourg I think), in some parts of our cities we have a percentage of up to 80 % of foreign residents .

We have entire school classes where not a single child speaks German as their mother tongue. This, however, does not justify (I know you did not do that) any anti-foreign sentiments. What I was trying to say is that I felt that I was treated much better as a foreigner in China than in many so-called Western countries. I was just talking about the current situation as I have experienced it and not about the reasons why this may be so.

ad LFJ:

(…) I found how true this is having just gotten back to China where I’ve been living from a trip to South Korea. The Koreans are so friendly and respectful to total strangers. It’s like day and night. In China, people are very friendly to family, friends and acquaintances, but toward strangers it’s as if they aren’t there! (…)

Honestly, I seem to have visited a different country. Yes, there are rude people in China but I have met this kind of people in many other places too. I remember having queued up at the airport in Qingdao for a flight to Shanghai. I had been waiting for some time already when a group of Chinese passengers came and pushed me aside. I was so taken aback that I couldn’t even say anything. However, after a couple of minutes or so I heard a Chinese guy talking to his fellow travellers while he was pointing at me. All of a sudden, the group split (almost like the Red Sea in the Bible ;-)), they smiled at me and asked me to go forward to the counter. Sure, pushing people aside is not nice but they seem to have felt sorry for the little “laowai”

People I had just met on the train during my ride from Qingdao and Beijing took me in their car to my hotel. On the way from the parking lot to the hotel they would carry my suitcase so it would not get dirty (it had rained quite a bit and some of the streets were in a rather bad condition).

Another guy got off at my bus stop to show me the way back to the apartment I had rented in Qingdao (I had used a different bus line and having arrived at night I was not sure which way to go). He actually had to take a taxi home from where he had taken me to.

As I said before, sometimes I felt the service quality (friendliness etc.) in restaurants and hotels left quite a bit to be desired, but generally speaking I have had many more pleasant than unpleasant encounters in China.

I’ll try to get the book you mentioned. It sounds like a very interesting read.

[LFJ]

@kigoik: “If it is only the term “老外” which makes you uncomfortable, I would say you probably make a mountain out of a molehill if I were allowed to say so. For me, the term “老外” is rather a colloquial, abbreviated, and even sometimes intimate form of “外国人”. Of course, it all depends on the tone, situation, etc. which may make its meaning negative, and these rules also apply on “外国人”. :-)”

Heck, the same applies to “Chinese” in English. If we take the example Dashan gave on his blog; “你太老外了” and say; “You’re too Chinese” to a Chinese person in another country, then it can have a pejorative sense too. But does that make calling Chinese people “Chinese” offensive? Of course not. What’s pejorative is saying that they don’t fit in, belittling them for their culture, not at all the term!

It’s the same with these lessons on LingQ. Where 老外 is used it’s the same as saying “Chinese”. It’s not at all rude. You’re absolutely right when you said 老外 is like a colloquial and abbreviated form of 外国人. That’s exactly why they “suddenly switched” to 老外 in the lessons. No other reason and not because they’re being rude!

Pointless topic by an ignorant and arrogant 老外…

[LFJ]

@lovelanguagesIII:

Sure, you will run into polite people, but try living in China for a while and experiencing daily life in public!

We have a (written and clearly indicated!) rule on the subways here called 先下后上. Allow passengers to alight before boarding. Markings on the floor show you should stand to the side of the doors and leave a path in the middle to let people off before getting on. But no matter what, as soon as the doors open people literally push and shove to get on. Even when there aren’t many people at all! They’ll stand right in front of the doors and walk through you when it opens! It’s incredibly inconsiderate and just plain rude. They act as if you aren’t there. It really makes you want to run them all over.

In contrast, the subway in Seoul when I was there was PACKED. There were tons of people, yet they had the same rule and actually followed it! And guess what… it worked wonderfully! It was very pleasant. That sort of orderliness is a long way from happening in China! All it really takes is being considerate toward others in public.

I actually remember a study where a group of Chinese that didn’t know each other were packed onto a bus, and another group of Chinese that were friends or family packed onto another. The bus where they all knew each other fit way fewer people because they actually made room for each other. Whereas the other bus was packed to the edges because they all just pushed into each other.

It’s the opposite where I’m from. We won’t mind squishing in with family or friends, but we’ll be extra considerate to strangers and make room for them, respecting their personal space.

Interesting difference at least…

[lovelanguagesIII]

ad LFJ (…) Just like not all Americans are offended by the Coca Cola commercial! (…)

I was quite surprised too when I read some of the comments about that commercial. They almost sounded as if America was under attack again.

Reminds me of a poster campaign by Red Bull (owned by an Austrian) in Germany. They tried to sell their Cola with a new slogan. However, they used the neutral article for Cola (“das Cola”) as we do in Austria as opposed to “die (fem. article) Cola” which obviously is the standard form in Germany. Some people started a “shitstorm” on the Internet, radio stations were swamped with complaints and some commercial posters were even destroyed. After a couple of days the company had to print new posters saying “die Cola” instead of “das Cola”

(…) We have a (written and clearly indicated!) rule on the subways here called 先下后上…(…)

I’m afraid Austrians aren’t much better in this respect. I loved Japan for how polite people were when getting on and off a public means of transport. Taiwan was pretty good too.

I’m sure that living in the country for any extended period of time is much different from what I experienced as someone who just stayed there for a few weeks or a couple of months.

At the end of the day, I have always enjoyed going back home no matter how much I love travelling

The world obviously needs more considerate and polite people in general.

[ColinJohnstonov]

“We have a (written and clearly indicated!) rule on the subways here called 先下后上. Allow passengers to alight before boarding. Markings on the floor show you should stand to the side of the doors and leave a path in the middle to let people off before getting on. But no matter what, as soon as the doors open people literally push and shove to get on. Even when there aren’t many people at all! They’ll stand right in front of the doors and walk through you when it opens!”

Ooooooh yes. I remember that. I remember the first time in Beijing that happened, I was not ready for it and I basically got picked up and carried a couple of meters by the croud.

“I’m afraid Austrians aren’t much better in this respect.”

Yes they are. I have no problem getting on and off the Viennese underground (or socalled ‘underground’ at least). It is nothing like the madness in Beijing.

I am not sure how people even get on and off the underground trains in Beijing. Two groups of people just smash together and start giggling about, and by some unknown random process, they eventually manage to diffuse through each other.

[steve]

@LFJ I have not read Lin YuTang’s book. However, I hesitate to accept these generalizations. People in Taiwan are not rude to each other. I think it is something that will change in China.

[lovelanguagesIII]

ad Colin: (…) (or socalled ‘underground’ at least)…

Well, it is a subway lol

[iaing]

My Chinese wife calls me laowai, and it often makes me smile. When I get it from a cab driver in rural Shandong, it normally produces a very serious stare, followed by me starting the next sentence with “hey laonei”. Usually, the point gets taken immediately, and no further major diplomatic disputes are engaged in.

Waiguoren, laowai, or yangguizi are all just different ways of referring to the “them” half of the “us/them” equation/mindset – an equation that is not (particularly) helpful in any language.

Certain people in China love to stereotype, as do people in other countries, particularly those without a lot of contact with other cultures or people that don’t look a lot like them. This statement, in itself, is, of course, a stereotype.